Tulpa.info - metaphysics

They're very strongly their own peoples

Haha fair enough. Part of the reason I refer to us as median is because we're never co-present

Did that answer work Scarlet? I'm not quite sure if I answered that right

8:12 PM

Co-present is a good word We're co-present most of the time, Cassidy is actually napping because he had a hard night and didn't want to be at school day (lucky bastard can just do that) but Gavin is here with me

Oh I see

8:15 PM

So you're co-present, but not co-fronting?

Yeah Gavin's my side seat driver

8:15 PM

Cassidy passed out in the back

Nice haha

JGC

Did that answer work Scarlet? I'm not quite sure if I answered that right

I definitely think you answered as well as possible, thank you. Was hard to be sure exactly what I was expecting anyway. Systems seem to either have very different experiences of dissociation or use the same word to describe a number of different things, I was just trying to get a better understanding.

8:19 PM

Part of it is that I usually don't like the term being brought up in regards to discussions of tulpamancy switching without folks being careful to very specifically define what they mean.

Yeah it's funny, in the clinical sense you'd be hard-pressed to find much that doesn't list dissociation as a direct anxiety response to anxiety I don't link much anxiety to my dissociation, and of course when people talk about dissociation in regards to meditation it's not related to anxiety at all...

8:20 PM

Dissociation can be quite unhealthy as in dissonance as well, and sometimes I do worry that when people read "dissociation" in tulpa contexts it's just a bit of a dogwhistle/code for "ignore it's a lie/pretend/fake" (edited)

8:21 PM

"dissociate from reality'" can really read like "lie" lmao

JGC

Dissociation can be quite unhealthy as in dissonance as well, and sometimes I do worry that when people read "dissociation" in tulpa contexts it's just a bit of a dogwhistle/code for "ignore it's a lie/pretend/fake" (edited)

Oh? In regards to switching conversations also?

Yeah "just pretend your tulpa is using the body even when you know it's you"

8:27 PM

I know this might be a hot take, but lying is bad

1

Not a hot take at all, but I disagree with it :p

JGC

Yeah "just pretend your tulpa is using the body even when you know it's you"

I usually take it in the opposite sense in that theyre referring to say, derealization, which the way we've experienced it seems to more affect the front and I don't think is necessarily conducive to switching. (edited)

8:30 PM

And is probably not something you want to train the brain to make easier to do.

Lying, just like any other human behaviour, may either bring about pleasant outcomes, painful outcomes, or both, for myself and/or others, depending on context

Such hedonism!

Ooh yeah ❤️

I don't even like white lies, to be honest, but I can't exactly put my finger on why.

I could bring up examples of lies of mine that IMO had all-around pleasant outcomes for all parties involved versus admissions to truth of mine that IMO had overall painful outcomes for all parties involved... (edited)

I prefer pain to untruth. But I've got a major hardon for the concept of absolute truth and empiricism so this is possibly a personal bias.

Hahaha

Speaking of arrogance, I think assuming you know a lie will be all around pleasant, or even was after the fact, takes an incredible degree of arrogance in your own perception and ability to see related effects.

I would word that as, the pleasure of being true at the cost of physical/emotional pain is greater for you (Zen) than any physical/emotional pleasure at the cost of lying

Scarlet

Speaking of arrogance, I think assuming you know a lie will be all around pleasant, or even was after the fact, takes an incredible degree of arrogance in your own perception and ability to see related effects.

Arrogance may certainly effect those kind of judgment calls. But it's always going to be a judgment call regardless

8:37 PM

But assuming that telling the truth will always be all around pleasant is just as much a judgment call

The opinions I seek and whose positive instances mean the most to me were people who have told me painful truths previously. The opinions of people who have only told me positive things are, in my opinion, valueless. (edited)

The way I see it is that untruth is what leads to cognitive dissonance. Ignorance can only be bliss if it remains completely untested, which is possible but not easy.

Depends on the situation...

8:39 PM

Anyway I'd give some examples but y'know... Christian server. ;P

OWO

I also think that most forms of immorality require a level of ignorance on some scale.

For someone who is seeking to be so removed from attachments to pleasant or painful circumstance, you seem awfully... attached to pleasant or painful circumstance as the means of measuring a lie. Whereas I prefer accuracy, and pleasant vs painful circumstance is not particularly relevant. Frankly that attitude always seems to in practice come with an attitude of thinking you know what is best for other people.

The exception being with true sociopaths. Who can be described as knowing the effect of their actions truly.

I think sociopaths, lacking in empathy, would actually not know the effect of their actions, truly.

Nooooo let's not get into the whole pop culture sociopath thing

Allow me to adjust: Intelligent sociopaths. There are definitely low-functioning sociopaths who lack the self-awareness to even construct valid models for interacting with society.

8:43 PM

LETS DO IT

So, still having cognitive empathy?

For someone who is seeking to be so removed from attachments to pleasant or painful circumstance, you seem awfully... attached to pleasant or painful circumstance as the means of measuring a lie.

It's not a matter of being attached to it. On the deepest level, all of your behaviour is informed by whether you think it will lead to pleasure or pain. Attachment is the belief that if circumstance doesn't turn out according to plan and delivers mostly pain, that means you're unworthy and that you cannot be content without that pleasure.

There is nothing preventing a sociopath from logically concluding "I feel this way, so this is what this person must be feeling when they have this response." while not actually feeling that response.

8:44 PM

Manipulative-type sociopaths are adept at gauging those responses and understanding them.

8:45 PM

Empathy is more than understanding. It's creating accurate simulacra.

Most autistic people have a good amount of "sociopathy," and antisocial personality disorder (sociopathy) is often comorbid with autism I wish people would more think of that sort of thing as an example of "lack of empathy" instead of serial killers Sociopathy is a lot more "I told this person that you said you hated them just because I thought they'd like to know" without realizing/caring that no you did not want them to say that than "I'm out ta murder babies!"

Frankly that attitude always seems to in practice come with an attitude of thinking you know what is best for other people.

When you interact with others, you'll always have to make assumptions on how your actions will affect them. Freedom from suffering means that you know you could be wrong about your assessment, and that either way a bad decision will lead to circumstantial pain at worst.

Thankfully no one here has yet claimed to be a sociopath.

That's what always gets me. And then at the rolling of your eyes, they assert, "no, really, I mean it." No, you don't. lol. And even if it were true, what reaction are you expecting from me here? Shock? Fear?

I feel like I've seen claims of it here in the past, but the people who have done so have tended to end up banned.

JGC

Most autistic people have a good amount of "sociopathy," and antisocial personality disorder (sociopathy) is often comorbid with autism I wish people would more think of that sort of thing as an example of "lack of empathy" instead of serial killers Sociopathy is a lot more "I told this person that you said you hated them just because I thought they'd like to know" without realizing/caring that no you did not want them to say that than "I'm out ta murder babies!"

Right. It doesn't inherently mean getting pleasure from constantly causing harm to others. Which in part is why I don't understand the fishing for a response when someone tries to be provocative saying something like that. You have no motivation to cause harm to me, and anything bad enough to be of real concern to me would risk you making yourself a criminal, so I don't see that I have much a reason to be worried about that at all.

To play devil's advocate. Sociopaths as a general rule tend to be impulsive and honestly not very intelligent. The dangerous ones are far outweighed by the stupid self-destructive ones.

8:55 PM

In much the same way as humans broadly are.

8:56 PM

So it's possible they were telling the truth rather than just being edgy.

Ahh, yes. Sociopaths tend to be impulsive, psychopaths more calculated, correct?

psychopath and sociopath refer to the same thing. But the prevalence of the mythological manipulative sociopath is... extraordinarily rare. Though somewhat a real thing.

8:57 PM

Psychopath as a term has gone out of fashion though.

Impulsivity does create a problem as a third party. So long as I can at least trust someone to act in their own general self-interest it is fairly easy to trust them and rule certain things out as concerns. Someone who is reckless and doesn't think about consequences for themselves is, in my opinion, more dangerous.

Basically the kind of intelligence that is displayed in those intelligent sociopaths isn't endemic to sociopaths. The disorder afflicts people across the board and is an impairement of function. A genius sociopath is no more likely than a genius neurotypical. But the ones that exist are the ones we write stories about and have the most fascination with.

9:01 PM

And it basically takes high intellect to overcome the symptoms and turn them into something akin to that. For most sociopaths they're more likely to just get themselves rapidly in trouble with the law.

Mmhmm.

9:04 PM

Plus, I am of the opinion that someone sufficiently intelligent and familiar with how their own brain works will generally act much the same if lacking empathy or even potentially if having looser morals.

9:05 PM

Brains acclimate to possessions, they're a horrible means of seeking happiness. Good relations with other humans are effectively essential to happiness and doing things to destroy your own reputation are not going to help in that regard.

I definitely wouldn't say that. Sociopaths who are intelligent put themselves into positions of authority where they can get away with malice.

They're intelligent, but don't have a good understanding of the psychology of happiness and contentment. There are lots of people like that.

9:09 PM

When you look at a lot of these people on relative high positions of power and wealth, how often do they actually seem genuinely happy, content, and at ease? I would say almost never. They've hopelessly confused an instrumental goal for a terminal one.

Human relationships are just as incapable of delivering happiness as activities and possessions. "Our greatest expectation is for love/approval from others" (edited)

9:13 PM

That doesnt mean "you shouldnt have good relationships", its just saying "dont mistake the pleasure of having friends/lovers for a potential source of unbroken contentment" (edited)

Who cares. If any of these people were zen enough to recognize that, they then wouldn't be pursuing wealth and power at all costs either.

Who says they were doing that? lol

I don't think that matters. People pursue pleasure in a vacuum even when they are Zen.

Anyways if the shoe doesnt fit, no need to wear it. Just good old Marissa parroting her teacher

Maybe you're having a different conversation. So, in your estimation what would be the difference between someone with empathy and and someone without if both were enlightened re: this framework?

Zen

I don't think that matters. People pursue pleasure in a vacuum even when they are Zen.

Right. And back to my original point, possessions and power are a horrible way of pursuing pleasure. Human relationships are almost essential.

The sociopath would experience no anxiety over pursuing their negative impulses. That's all.

9:19 PM

Now that I would contend

I don't know if anyone knows Garrett from Anarchy or other places, but he has antisocial personality disorder

Ah yeah I wasnt replying to the whole sociopathy angle, just to the statement that human relationships are capable of providing lasting satisfaction. As far as your question, the difference is that one would be empathic and the other one isnt, lol

Pleasure absolutely does extend very easily from possessions and power.

9:20 PM

God damn do I love power over other people. You have no idea.

9:20 PM

I cannot even begin to stress just how large my pleasure from that is.

9:21 PM

The difference between myself and a sociopath is that I also have to contend with the fact I can understand suffering from their perspective even as I am inflicting it. So I want power and their satisfaction at the same time...

The sociopaths who are dummies don't talk about it so much and the sociopaths who are these master manipulators would not be bringing it up People who talk about how sociopathic they are are generally just mean

Zen I agree and you must have heard me saying 1000 times by now that human beings will always move towards pleasure and away from pain, nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with having lovers, friendships, material possessions, except if you believe that it can fix the perceived hole in your soul

And 13

1

Absolutely, JGC.

Zen

The difference between myself and a sociopath is that I also have to contend with the fact I can understand suffering from their perspective even as I am inflicting it. So I want power and their satisfaction at the same time...

Power over people can be had consensually. The other kind tends to always come with a price tag.

Does it? Does a politician with access to infinite money and security services that have blackmail material over you need to pay to own you?

I don't believe "perfect" manipulators exist. You always get caught if it is something you do with frequency. It's the same principle I hold about lying. The best liars are those that lie the least.

Could your doctor have similar power over you?

9:24 PM

Could a police officer?

9:24 PM

These are roles sociopaths gravitate towards.

9:25 PM

CEO is another favourite.

I agree with that statement about liars ;P

I reiterate I have never seen anyone single-mindedly pursue wealth and power that seemed genuinely happy and content. Maybe they exist but they seem at best, hypothetical.

I would argue that such a conclusion is over-broad and presumes the experiences of others.

Alright. lol

Also one of the things you'll note about sociopaths is they universally play the victim and don't mean it at all.